bizSearchWrongfully terminated lieutenant names town, former Selectmen, resident in federal lawsuit
Wareham Police Lieutenant Donald Bliss, who was fired in 2009 and reinstated last year by the state Civil Service Commission, has named the town, former interim Town Administrator John Sanguinet, a former Board of Selectmen, and a Wareham resident in a federal lawsuit for their alleged roles in his termination.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court on January 20 by Bliss' attorney, Andrew J. Gambaccini, alleges that the defendants acted in "various ways so as to bring about the illegal discharge" of Bliss and "attempted to mask the true motivations for their actions through the advancement of unsubstantiated and meritless charges designed to injure Donald Bliss, his career, his reputation, his family and his personal life."
The lawsuit alleges that Bliss was targeted by members of a former Board of Selectmen because, in 2002, following a civil service promotional examination "and an approved assessment center," he was promoted to the rank of lieutenant over former Wareham Police Sergeant Eileen Grady, a childhood friend of then-Selectman M. Jane Donahue.
Bliss' wife and children are also named as plaintiffs in the suit. No dollar amount is listed for damages sought. Gambaccini said in a phone call that the amount will be determined at a later date in the process.
Bliss was fired in February, 2009 by then-Interim Town Administrator John Sanguinet for what officials said was an improper use of his town-issued cell phone and for allegedly using his police position to sell alarm systems.
After the Civil Service Commission's unanimous vote that the lieutenant had been wrongfully terminated, Bliss was given his job back plus more than $200,000 in back pay. He returned to work in June, 2011, but has been out of work since mid-summer due to medical issues and use of vacation time.
"Our investigation shows that there was total strategic planning on this," Bliss said of his firing, adding that he wants "to hold everyone who's responsible, accountable."
Grady "felt aggrieved by her failure to receive the promotion and later filed a lawsuit over the non-selection," according to the lawsuit documents.
Following the promotion, Bliss was "involved in a number of employment-related issues with Sergeant Grady, providing information through investigations and hearings that was not favorable to her," according to the lawsuit. "As a consequence, Grady bore animosity toward Donald Bliss for his receipt of a promotion and for what she viewed as his harmful treatment of her following his promotion."
The situation came to a head in 2008 and 2009, the lawsuit alleges.
"Grady was friends with members of the Wareham Board of Selectmen as that body was constituted in 2008 and 2009," according to the lawsuit. That Board of Selectmen consisted of Bruce Sauvageau, M. Jane Donahue, Brenda Eckstrom, John Cronan, and James Potter. All are named as defendants in the suit.
Grady had a "deep personal relationship with defendant M. Jane Donahue that stretched back to their days in school together as children," according to the lawsuit. "As a result of those personal relationships and allegiances with Grady, members of the Wareham Board of Selectmen, including M. Jane Donahue, used their official positions with the Town to target and to take action against Donald Bliss."
Soon after former-Town Administrator John McAuliffe entered into a three-year contract with the town in August, 2007, Selectman Eckstrom presented him with a real estate advertisement that involved Bliss and contained his Police Department phone number, according to the lawsuit.
McAuliffe asked then-Police Chief Thomas Joyce to look into the matter.
"Donald Bliss took corrective action and ported his long held Department cell phone number to a private account the same day," according to court documents.
Joyce, who now serves as Fire Chief in Marion, determined that there were "perhaps five calls" that might have occurred when Bliss was working, "amounting to twelve minutes of time and no cost to the Town because of the nature of the Town's cellular telephone plan," according to the lawsuit.
Additionally, McAuliffe has testified that he considered the town's lack of a cell phone policy, lack of past practice on cell phone usage, lack of cost to the town, and Bliss' lack of a prior disciplinary history and his "exceptional work history" in determining that there was "nothing there" with respect to the "seriousness of the cell phone issue," according to the lawsuit.
Bliss was reprimanded with 16 hours of "punishment duty" -- work for no compensation -- for the incident. He submitted a memorandum to McAuliffe in 2008 to say that it had been served. Chief Joyce also did not compensate Bliss for two, four-hour "overtime slips, meaning Donald Bliss ultimately worked twenty-four hours without pay," according to the suit.
In June, 2008, McAuliffe was placed on leave about a year into his three-year contract.
"In adopting a resolution citing reasons for that leave, the Board [of Selectmen] cited that McAuliffe had failed to act in connection with a Town employee who assertedly had used a Town phone for a private business," the lawsuit says. "That employee was Donald Bliss."
On June 18, Sanguinet assumed the role of interim town administrator. He reopened the inquiry into the cell phone incident.
"The Board installed Sanguinet as an interim Town Administrator in order to dangle the permanency of the position over Sanguinet's head and to ensure that he did the Board's bidding -- something that McAuliffe had not done and that prompted his removal," the suit alleges.
Chief Joyce has testified that he once asked Sanguinet why the Board of Selectmen had animosity for him, and Sanguinet said that "the animosity derived in part from the situation involving Sergeant Grady," according to the lawsuit.
Attorney Steven Torres was hired and charged with conducting an investigation of Bliss, according to the suit. Torres' investigation also included Bliss' work with the alarm company.
The town was "made well aware" that Bliss had already served punishment duty because of the cell phone incident, but "Sanguinet and other Town officials including the named defendants chose to ignore that fact and press ahead with the plan to sanction" Bliss, according to the lawsuit.
In January, 2009, Sanguinet delivered a letter Chief Joyce for delivery to Bliss indicating that Bliss would be placed on paid administrative leave pending an appointing authority hearing. When delivering the letter, Sanguinet said the matter was "out of my hands," according to the lawsuit.
Bliss was terminated in February, 2009, and appealed the decision to the Civil Service Commission. During Civil Service Commission proceedings, resident Lisa Bindas was presented as a witness for the town.
Bindas, through a report and affidavit from town counsel, alleged that Bliss "made sales calls regarding a residential alarm for her home while in uniform and indicated that to purchase an alarm from Donald Bliss would be to secure better service from the Police Department, who would know which alarms are his," according to the lawsuit.
The Civil Service Commission said that Bindas and Bliss "presented starkly different versions of the details of this transaction" and called Bindas' testimony "unpersuasively vague and inconsistent," according to the lawsuit.
Bindas had been before the Board of Selectmen in late 2007 and 2008, attempting to get that board to issue a cease and desist order for hauling that was being done on her street, according to the suit. Members of the Board of Selectmen had said on multiple occasions that the board was being placed in the middle of a neighborhood feud.
"On May 19, 2009, after Donald Bliss was terminated, the Board [of Selectmen], after almost two years, issued a cease and desist order," according to the lawsuit. "The Board [of Selectmen] granted the request long made by Bindas based upon her willingness to concoct allegations against Donald Bliss."
The lawsuit lists extensive damage to familial relationships and finances for members of the Bliss family.
"It was my life," Bliss said of his work on the Wareham Police Department. "I have a blue light for a heart."
Bliss seeks compensatory damages and punitive damages against all parties, as well as attorneys' fees and any further relief the court deems necessary.
The Civil Service Commission can “can give you your back pay, lost benefits, but it can't give you any compensation … for essentially what you suffered through for a period of time," said Gambaccini in explaining the reasoning behind the lawsuit. "We are going to try to make [Bliss] and his family whole as best we can."
Sanguinet, Donahue, Eckstrom, and Cronan all said they had not yet seen the lawsuit and thus could not comment on the issue.
Sauvageau, Potter, and Bindas could not immediately be reached for comment.
Current Town Administrator Mark Andrews said he could not comment on "personnel matters."
Reinstated Lt. Bliss says retaliation forced him to retire, lawsuit pending Letter from fired police officer's lawyer to town prompts town to cut $207,000 check Town will not appeal Civil Service decision for fired officer Fired police lieutenant to get job back, town owes roughly $200,000
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Why doesn't it surprise me that Eckstrom is in the middle of this?
It doesn't surprise me one bit about what they have done or any of the others involved here. The trail of their destruction will be long and does not end with this. What they have done to this Town is simply terrible. People of Wareham have you had enough yet?
Good Good, the worst most incompetent BOS in the history of the Town of Wareham has been out of office for ages and yet their incompetence and stupidity are still costing this town big time bucks all this time later. I'm glad to hear Bliss is suing. I have always said that the only way to hold these hypocrites accountable is for them to be sued for their actions. I hope there will be some way for the town to legally hold these idiots personally responsible to pay back every dime that the town has to spend on this.
This is what you get when you put big time morons in charge, Wareham. The town will be suffering for years due to the actions of these babbling morons.
Wareham Week, while we're talking about lawsuits, why don't you sue Bobo the Clown for copyright violation for posting this entire story to his stupid website? God, this idiot is a lousy failed reporter so he has to steal real newspapers' stories.
The Town of Wareham should tell every party named in the lawsuit to find and pay for their own lawyers. Wareham can no longer afford to foot the bill to buy legal representation for morons who get themselves into trouble because of their moronic actions. Act like an idiot? Foot the bill to bail yourself out on your own.
Bobo, copying an entire story to post on your out of business ex-newspaper site because you're too lazy to go out and report the story yourself is "fair use?" God, you're an idiot. The failure of your pathetic rag was the best thing to ever happen to the Town of Wareham. You're a joke.
I'm not glad to hear Mr Bliss is suing the town (whether he has a case or not). The town has nothing left.
So if I read the above story correctly, the incident happened in 2002 and he was fired in 2009 which is a 7 year difference. Is that correct? He returned to work in June, 2011, but has been out of work since mid-summer due to medical issues and use of vacation time. This guy is just looking for more free money. Spin it how ever you want but this guy is looking for a free ride.
I think it is too bad that the town will have to pay out a ton of money on this but I don't blame the man for suing, the guy's reputation and life was ruined by a bunch of losers with a grudge. Anyone in his position would do the same. This is the price the town pays for putting losers in charge of the town.
I hope there will be some way for the town to be reimbursed by the people who were actually responsible for this fiasco. The town should not have to pay to hire lawyers for these idiots. They should have no access to town counsel. The town can't afford it. Any selectman or town official who votes to hire a lawyer to represent the named parties should be recalled immediately.
Zeph, it happened in 2009, not 2002, why don't you educate yourself on the facts before you run your big mouth.
"The lawsuit alleges that Bliss was targeted by members of a former Board of Selectmen because, in 2002, following a civil service promotional examination "and an approved assessment center," he was promoted to the rank of lieutenant over former Wareham Police Sergeant Eileen Grady, a childhood friend of then-Selectman M. Jane Donahue."
Seems to me this happened in 2002 and he was fired in 2009.
What part of that story didn't you get WT?
Zeph, are you serious? He wasn't fired until 2009 so he didn't have anything to sue over until 2009. What was he supposed to sue for in 2002? God, it wears me out having to debate imbeciles. I'm sorry to be so curt, but this town's number one problem is that there are too many idiots in positions of power.
spin it spin it spin it spin it spin it spin it.
The guy came back to work for what, a couple of weeks? He has no intention of going back to work so he is going to milk it.
And why are you always so angry when you come here? Did someone bully you when you were younger?
Zephyr, it all began in 2002 when "Officer Bliss was promoted to the rank of lieutenant over former Wareham Police Sergeant Eileen Grady, a childhood friend of then-Selectman M. Jane Donahue." This sparked a bunch of controversy within the department as Sergeant Grady was passed over for this promotion. Afterward, Sergeant Grady "bore animosity toward Donald Bliss for his receipt of a promotion and for what she viewed as his harmful treatment of her following his promotion." She was very good friends with M. Jane Donahue and it was due to their friendship that "members of the Wareham Board of Selectmen, including M. Jane Donahue, used their official positions with the Town to target and to take action against Donald Bliss." Thus, the SEVEN year blacklisting of anything involving Donald Bliss. This board began an underground "mission" to remove him from his position. It all came to a head in 2009, when he was WRONGFULLY FIRED from his job.
This caused undo stress upon Donald, his family, and his friends. Not to mention what it did to morale inside the Police Station. He filed a complaint with the Civil Service and the Commission's unanimous vote indicated that he had been wrongfully terminated. He was given his job back plus more than $200,000 in back pay.
To say that he's only looking for money is ludicrous. He's LOOKING TO REPAIR THE DAMAGE THAT THIS BOARD INFLICTED UPON HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY. To NOT work for two full years while the bills keep piling up, the stress keeps building up, etc.... - all because of these idiots. He should be compensated handsomely and I hope he gets what he's looking for.
I have read the decision by the Civil Service Commission. And parts of it have been left out of this article.
The Commission found that Bliss did do the acts of which he was accused, namely, he used his Town-issued cell phone for his private business (both alarm business and real estate business.) An ad in the paper for a property Bliss was marketing included his town-issued cell number.
The Commission could not find that Bliss had not received punishment for those actions. But, get this -- NO PUNISHMENT WAS EVER NOTED IN HIS PERSONNEL FILE. Former Chief of Police Joyce testified on behalf of Bliss. The Commission also noted that Bliss and Joyce were good friends.
There was also the issue of Bliss serving two masters -- the Town and his outside employer. I'll leave that discussion for a later post.
Touchdown,
It doesn't seem as the Civil Service Commission decision is really a part of this article. The article seems to me to be about the current lawsuit that is being brought by Bliss. Then again we all know that you would write a better article (note sarcasm). Can't wait to see your later post....
Zeph, what can I say? If you can imagine yourself in a hypothetical scenario where town officials abuse their power to destroy your reputation and put you out of your job and you still think in such a hypothetical situation that you would do nothing in response, then I bow to your Mahatma Gahndi-esque level of self-restraint.
Touchdown, it's kind of funny that you keep repeating the same points made by Bobo the Clown. I wonder why that is? Hmmm....
laughing all the way to the bank.....maybe the town could offer him the nail factory for compersation.................................
Let's cut to the chase. Convincing a court that one member of a board of selectmen who went to school with a former police officer 'way back in the day', convinced an entire board of selectmen, a town administrator, and a police chief to get him fired is beyond riduculous. Sure, Civil Service concluded that his punishment (firing) did not rise to the charges levied against him (using his town cellphone on town time), but the Lt. never denied that he did this. So, he was in the wrong, and the town was in the wrong for punishing him twice (once by the Chief, and the second by the TA by firing him). He got his job back + $200K back wages. End of story. To prove that a private resident consipired with a BOS, TA, and police chief to get him fired is a waste of everyone's time and money. There is no conspiracy as the BOS at his firing wasn't even assembled together for more than 2 years, and supposedly he had problems all the way back to 2002. If I remember correctly, I believe Sgt. Grady successfully sued the town way back when for discrimination of getting passed over for Lt. How ironic could it be that Bliss would sue town officials for his job loss after he was given the Lt. position 'by his friend the Chief' and passed over someone with more credentials, who happened to be a woman? Is this the type of officer that Wareham really wants, I think the town better start reviewing officer candidates more closely before hiring.
At its heart this is Mr. Bliss charging conspiracy and abuse of position against Mr. Sanguinet and former BOS members. Whether he's successful will largely be determined by what witnesses and defendants say under oath and whether the combined testimony is consistent, shaky, or outright contradictory. And what deals defendants are willing to make, if any.
It's also about penalties, whereas the earlier Civil Service hearing was about reinstatement and back pay with no penalties. Mr. Bliss is clearly still angry and willing to bare his life story in court - not something a career law enforcement officer should take lightly. Everybody's record is likely to be tarnished in this trial, if it ever happens.
Looking at this from a distance and reading the Civil Service Commission ruling, I'd say there are some potentially very shaky key witnesses and would not be surprised by any outcome. The one thing I hope is that the Town decides not to cover the legal expenses of past officials, with the possible exception of Mr. Sanguinet who may be able to make the case that he was acting totally within his capacity as Interim Town Administrator.
Change and Thinker: I am not a journalist. I am not Robert Slager. Your assumptions that I am are just stupid!!!
There are a lot of people in this town who have read the Commission's Report. For you, Change, to say it is not part of this article is equally stupid. Where do you think some of the information came from? I would suggest that you get your hands on a copy of it.
Touchdown, when did anyone accuse you of being Slager? Kind of weird that you deny things people haven't accused you of.
I think the main point here is that for several years, we had an out of control BOS that was willing to pursue vendettas with no concern for the financial consequences for the town because, what the heck, it's the town's money at stake, not theirs. I say the buck stops here. The townspeople need to step up and demand that no town officials past or present named in this lawsuit gets legal representation paid for on the town's dime. The town can no longer afford to bankroll the vendettas of the Hypocrite Elite.
By the way, why are the tin hats whining about the civil service commission report? That report was heavily critical of the town officials involved in this fiasco. Anyone who wants to learn more about the incompetence of the ex-BOS should read it. The report actually called the action taken against Bliss "a draconian sanction" and further stated that it was "an unmistakable example of the effect of improper personal motives and undue political influence which have no place in a merit-based civil service system."
I would say that a report like that with such critical language against the town and town officials will be very supportive of a lawsuit. I can't blame him for suing, I just think it's too bad that the town is still suffering from the incompetent decisions of a lousy BOS. The expensive lesson for voters to learn is to be careful about who they allow to have positions of power in the town government.
I hope the town has insurance that covers the legal costs.
Sidenote: What is important to note is that in today's Wareham Police Department, officers are promoted based on merit.
Thinker, connect the dots. I am sure you have the mental capacity to, at least, do that.
Don Bliss Was wrongfully terminated. Overwhelmingly shown by a unanimous vote of 5 independent Civil Service Comm in Boston. To say he does not have the right to file a claim after it was proven he was wrongfully terminated and his career and reputation destroyed is absoloutly ridiculous. Of course he has that right as would anyone else that has proven in a legal capacity to be wrongfully harmed. Now the question is, who is responsible, surely someone is. The whole point of filing suit is to hold depositions, inquires, follow up investigations based on those results and then have a jury listen to all the facts and decide who is responsible and how responsible for what happened to this man. Yours or my opinion with out hearing testimony from all the people listed in the suit have no merit and are only speculation or wishful thinking. This is the core reason we files suits like this to hold people responsible for being careless and irresponsible in matters that effect others lives. During the civil service case he was only fighting for his job and defending himself. Bliss has never been able to even question the people listed in the suit, never mind present his case. You keep referring that the commish did not identify a solid connection on certain thing regarding Bindas and Donahue. Well thats because Bliss never presented any evidence or even attempted to prove same at that level. Those points raised by the commis were based on his own observations of things that just came up during the case. Now its time for Bliss to present his case which he will. Yes I am a good friend of Don Bliss and his entire Family and have witnessed the anguish he and his family have gone through because this vindictive act. For all the people saying he does not have the right to defend his good family name, reputation and career should really hold onto that thought until his investigation is presented in Federal Court. He has done an incredible investigating. His attorney will show the court exactly what happened through both digital & physical evidence, testimony, and documents. Remember he does this for a living and has had a lot of time on his hands. It is also his opinion that when continuing the investigation through depositions and other means he will also produce enough evidence to most likely add 2 to 3 members of the Police department to the suit, some who may have gained from his demise. I do know for sure he will never rest until everyone responsible is held fully accountable. Anyone that knows him, knows this to be true, he has an unlimited energy level and a truck load of pride. If you were not involved you have nothing to worry about.
Yes touchdown, Karl Baptiste was promoted to school officer on his merits!!!! I could go on but I wont.
If anyone would like to read the report to which I assume Wareham Thinker is referring (Commonwealth of Massachusetts Civil Service Commission - Donald Bliss Apellant) I offer the following link which is available on and has been copied and pasted from The Observer site:
http://www.thewarehamobserver.com/photos/bliss_donald_050511.pdf
This is fascinating in a kind of the beat goes on kind of way. In all of the comments, no one mentioned the guy who did the right thing, John McAuliffe. He looked at the situation, analyzed it, acted and kept things (importantly) under the radar earning the ire of the then BOS.
I thought then and to this day that had John stayed in place, the problems that we face-and there are many of them-would have been been handled more appropriately. The biggest mistake the BOS did was to pull the plug on John, others will disagree I am sure but think back and reflect. When you asked John a question, you got an answer, no temporizing, Perhaps not the answer you hoped for but an answer, straightforward.
Mahatma Ghandi observed that the application of an eye-for-eye-and-a-tooth-for-a-tooth would soon lead to a nation of blind and toothless people. There is a message in there for all of us.
Let me close with the following,though a member of the Finance Committee, these comments are strictly my own.
Touchdown- I never "accused" you of anything did I? I think not. I merely stated that I am sure you could write a better article (with a bit of sarcasm) since you come in and rip it up, just like Interested Party used to do. Nothing more about you at all. Never said you were or were not Slager. I have no reason to think that. I know that you are in his court and that is fine. Everyone can believe what and/or whom they so choose.
As for the lawsuit? No, I haven't read the Commission's report. You know why? Because *gasp* I don't care about it. Nor do I care about this lawsuit. It is just another in a long line of lawsuits that a former BOS has been involved in. They have been voted out (or left) for a reason. There is nothing I can do about it so I don't care about it. Can you believe that? I simply don't care. I have a job and a family to care for and have no time getting all worked up about every little (or big) thing going on in this town. I just get sick of seeing people trashing this newspaper when I know that they are just speaking for the ringleader. You can write it better? Apply for a job with them.
My sincere apologies to Officer Baptiste if he or anyone thought I was referring to him in my recent post. That was definitely not my intention. In fact, I have heard many, many good things in the community about Karl Baptiste.
I Truth, please don't make those kind of assumptions in the future.
I think it's funny that the tin hats have this "the commission report is bad for Bliss' case" spin. The commission report ruled that Bliss was wrongfully terminated, so uh, yeah, I would think that the report just might help his lawsuit for wrongful termination.
Just face it. The "leadership" provided by the ex-bos was so lousy that the town is still suffering from it financially years after them being out of office. This is one example of many incompetent decisions that the town will pay through the nose for thanks to lousy leadership.
Whats so frustrating here is everyone commenting on this is missing the main point of the law suit. HE WAS WRONGFULLY FIRED. He was a lt for the town with a spotless record and was fired for using his cell phoneee? come onnnn, it was done for vengeful reasons. WHO in there right mind would say he doesn't have the right to sue for having his reputation and job taken from himmm???? Its completely ignorant and ridiculous.
Zephyr, for you to say he is looking for free money is absurd. He was a dedicated officer for over 20 years that had his career and repuation unfairly ripped apart by a bunch of incompentent idiots!!!! I happen to know he had every intention of going back to his position, but you try going back to a job where your reputation has been tarnished and your treated with disrespect.HE DESERVES EVERY PENNY HE GETS FROM THIS LAWSUIT for the suffering they WRONGFULLY put him and his family through!!
AND TOUCHDOWN REALLY? come on people like you disgust me?for you to try and say the cheif AND the former town adminster lied to say that Lt. Bliss was punished and wasnt is rediculous in itself. But you are missing the point that HE SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN FIRED IN ANY SORTS for using his cellphone? That is not an offense you can justify firing someone over. Pretty sure werent in the courtroom, yet you think you know more than the commisioner that ruled on this case. Pretty sure hes more qualified to decide that Lt. Bliss was wrongfully fired.
AND finally DOC DEEKAS what are you the female whose job was supposedly passed over or her friend. Because you should know grady was not at all over qualified and the law suit that she tried to file against the town DIDNT WORK BECAUSE GUESS WHAT? SHE DIDNT DESERVE THE JOB!
People with negative comments need to realize what Lt. Bliss went through having his career he dedicated his life to WRONGFULLY stripped away from him. I hope he gets every cent! Even though it wont fix what they did to him and his family emotionally he deserves it for how the town repayed him for his dedication to the police department.
THE GOOD, RESPECTABLE, HONEST PEOPLE OF WAREHAM SUPPORT YOU MR.BLISS! WHAT THEY DID TO YOU WAS SO WRONG!
Don Bliss is a good, honest, hardworking man and one of the best officers wareham police department has ever seen! He deserves to sue these assholes after what this town did to him!!!
Don has every right to sue. It's no different from the people we all read about from time to time who were jailed for crimes they supposedly committed only to be proved innocent later by new technology or other means. Noone ever begrudges them huge rewards as compensation for wrongful conviction. Mr. Bliss should be entitled to a full bank account at the town's expense.
I urge everyone to take a moment to read the Wareham Courier's powerful story about what the Bliss family had to go through because of this ordeal. It is called "Bliss Lawsuit a Family Matter." The story details how the Bliss family was embarrassed and humiliated, how they were inundated with creditors, how they had to sell their belongings on eBay just to make ends meet, how they had to go without utilities because they couldn't afford them, how one of their children was embarrassed when the lights were shut off on a day when she was to have photos taken at the house for a prom, and how that child was not able to go to the college she wanted due to the financial problems they were cause by this wrongful firing.
Go read the story. All I can say is that if the tin hats keep whining about Bliss even after reading this story, then they truly are heartless pieces of garbage.
Well Bobo, I guess you're a heartless piece of garbage then. But then again, that's nothing new, everyone always knew that.